How to Stand Out in the Short-Term Rental Market with Shawn Moore

welcome back to the short-term rental riches podcast I feel really privileged to be in the podcast world and to have connections with a lot of other super educated and experienced people in the short-term rental industry one of those people is Sean Moore and Sean is the host of the vacation rental Revolution podcast he's an author he's the founder of Odyssey he's been in the space for a real long time so I'm excited to have him on the show welcome to the show Sean awesome Tim I

appreciate you having me I'm excited for another conversation this will be good yeah totally totally I know you got a bunch of background a ton of experience you've been in the space for a long time excellent podcast as well by the way so thanks for putting all those fantastic episodes together you want to give us a little background yeah you know it's it's been an interesting ride for me I've been in uh real estate investing for full-time now I can't believe it's been this long for

23 years since my 23rd year is uh not having a real job right it's uh always been in the real estate game and bounced around a lot of different asset classes really started off in The Fix and Flip world for a long time started rolling into development deals built a portfolio some long-term rentals and ultimately back in 2006 I bought my first vacation home I didn't I didn't intend it to be a short-term rental never even thought about getting into that game we just started we

were doing well enough we were buying some second homes and and we bought you know I lived in Utah Boston in the mountains in Utah and bought this little cabin up there and um we ended up starting to not use it as much as we thought we were going to use it and then we started to the everything was kind of changed around with the economy we thought you know we're gonna we're gonna throw this on at the local the local KSL ads and the Craigslist

ads and the local classifieds and all these different things that we had at the time and and it started booking every single weekend and so didn't think much of it but it was kind of we needed to because at the time we were doing a lot of big development deals and one of the deals we were working on the owners of the resort that we were working on on the development got indicted on screws charges and so everything shut down overnight and all of a sudden

our real estate investment business was was just over because we had one big client right we had one big person that was doing this development and so I started actually losing a lot of my assets I started you know not being able to pay bills everything else and actually had to short sell our house we lost our vehicles we kind of we started sitting on our hands for a while and not doing anything because I just was sitting here and I kind of was blaming the

world right I played the victim role for a little while and said you know this isn't my fault you know we've worked hard this wasn't fair all those all those things that we give ourselves excuses well while you're doing that nobody cares right if the bills aren't getting paid Banks don't care and throughout this slide of us losing everything it was also during the real estate slide everything was going down in value now we're in 2008 9 10 and we're going through this slide and I

had this cabin that was actually making me money during this whole time and it was actually and so when we kind of recovered we got back on our feet we started working again and started doing our thing I look back and realized how well these short-term rentals did in one of the one of the worst performing real estate time frames in history right and um and started to realize that maybe there's something to this asset class and so that's what really kind of opened our eyes

to short-term rentals was by accident frankly and uh then by 2011-12 we really started to pay attention to this asset really started to focus on this asset and ever since then we just haven't looked back we've been in investing in short-term rentals I don't do any of the Arbitrage co-hosting any of that stuff which I think a lot a lot of guys and people that do that it's awesome it's an awesome way to do it we've always been in the ownership side of it and so

from that point forward we just started stacking assets and we realized that we don't have to have these huge portfolios to pay a lot of bills and you know we usually maintain a portfolio between six and ten properties and we do trade properties we do we do maximize them and then trade up and so at this stage we you know we we have a fairly High performing portfolio for the size you know we're nearing seven figures passively every single year with a portfolio of eight properties

I mean and so it's uh it's pretty it's a pretty impressive asset class if you will and I know you know this but that's and that's what got us into the game was back in the days just kind of by accident yeah that's awesome quite quite the journey uh tons of experience always good to hear someone being full-time in real estate for such a long time too I think that's that's why most of us get into it right we're looking for the time freedom and not

having that that real job so that's awesome Sean well can you tell us a little bit more about your portfolio maybe kind of where the properties are and what the sort of mix is yeah absolutely so I've always just been a Believer like I call these um lifestyle assets you know we we affect the title of my book is what the hell is a lifestyle asset right and to me that we we kind of started calling them lifestyle assets for us because we like the we

like the personal use aspect of them like I love being able to use our properties with our with our friends and family and building a portfolio that's pretty fun to own right and so that's what we my portfolio revolves around areas that we enjoy right we love Outdoors we love the mountains we love national parks and so our most of our entire portfolio is built around those types of Market and those types of profit drivers you know there's always the big question of where's the best

markets to invest you know and and I think that sometimes people over complicate it and I think that not that not that there are more investable markets than others we all know that to be the case right we know that based on acquisition costs versus Revenue there's markets that are going to be more favorable than others and but there's more to it than that and I believe and I always ask people why don't you start to analyze markets based on where you would love to own

a vacation home and that's how we built our portfolio and then we go make sure it's investable we go make sure that we can make money there but there's there's more than just chasing the most investable markets because those ratios change on a regular basis and you know you know you know we use a lot of the same tools a lot of us in this game we love like the air dnas of the world and and being able to pull the data and really make decisions

analytical decisions that's super important but when you're looking at a list of 150 homes that are all investable you know markets that are all investable how are you choosing it and and I always tell people part of the game we play is really delivering a great experience and if you don't if you're not familiar with the area and you're not part of the target audience in that area of who you're going to go attract you're going to fall flat and and I've seen that to be

the case and so I always I always buy properties that I love and I buy and I'm part of the target audience like I love like kind of fly fishing cabins and I have you know cabins that are adult getaways things that I enjoy doing so that I can speak to the audience and I can set up an experience and versus just going and picking the most investable Market that I might not be as interested in my portfolio a great example of that too is I

don't have a whole bunch of large properties I don't buy the big massive properties because I don't travel with big groups we typically go with just our family and maybe one other couple so we don't travel in these big groups so my portfolio is not gonna do that we've got a lot of people that we work with that have these massive properties that do every bit as well as our properties do because they travel in big groups because and they can speak to that audience I'm

going to not do a very good job of setting those properties up outside of looking like a model home right because like you know when we talk about kind of you know tactical things that you should do to succeed one of them is dialing in a great experience for a specific target audience and so I always love talking to different you know owners investors in this game and we all might be following the same path and running down the road with the same asset class and

our portfolios look completely different and they can all be very successful in high performing based on you know how you set them up and I think it's a lot easier to set them up based on your personal Target you know portfolio and kind of demographic than it is to try to figure out somebody else's no that's a great Point yeah if if you are the guest Avatar then you don't have too much to figure out do you right that's a lot easier right yeah yeah so

I I think that's one of the things that's just really exciting and and fun about short-term rentals compared to traditional real estate investing you know buying multi-family large complexes for example is that we can use them as lifestyle assets there can be that travel component and so that is there's kind of two two boats here right there's some people that are doing it just looking for maximizing their investment 100 but then there there's the other bow where you know family wants to spend vacation there or

it's a place that you just happen to like go into and so there's definitely the fun side I like that and and if we can make those work then that's fantastic right I think that just makes the makes the journey a lot more fun do you have some maybe tips for people in the the lifestyle asset site uh side of things you know they're looking for that place maybe a lot of what I found Sean is sometimes in these really heavy vacational markets the prices are

pretty pretty high right especially over the last few years they've gotten they've gotten pretty high so it's been a little harder to find some places that maybe we can use as a lifestyle asset but that still provide some cash flow if you have just some tips or general recommendations around that yeah I think the biggest one is just like you said there's two sides of the coin of okay this is strictly an investment I want to maximize it because I love the asset class I'm not

going to use it much right and then the other side is I want to supplement a a vacation home for us in our family right and and supplements the key word if you're going to use it more often than rent it out right we know that to be the case especially in a lot of these vacation markets if you're going to buy it as a lifestyle asset and you and you want to be somewhere in the middle you want it to be a good investment as

far as cash flow investment right most real estate's a good investment long-term period just because of appreciation and and no pay down by somebody else all those different things that we have but just cash flow wise if you're going to be on the lifestyle higher and you're going to be a lifestyle buyer you're going to supplement a vacation home but you're probably not cash flowing if you're using it on all the major holidays and and you know the during the peak Seasons a lot right you

need to be able to capitalize on that asset when it's at its highest earning potential so I always tell lifestyle buyers listen do you have some flexibility if you want a cash flow you've got to have some flexibility of when you use your asset right look at you know most markets that are you have a you know the peak Seasons you're making sometimes 70 80 90 percent of your income comes from those Peak seasons and so maybe maybe don't use it during that and use it

more during the shoulder season like that's how we use our assets I use it a little bit more last minute and we use it during the shoulder Seasons you won't catch me using my properties on Fourth of July weekend when everybody's there you know or the Christmas holidays just because I'm leaving so much money on the table or it's costing me a lot to use that and not rent it out and so and then so you have to think a little bit more like the investor

if you want to have some sort of a some sort of cash flow at least right and by being able to do that it's looking at the calendar and saying okay when when is my highest earning potential throughout the year for this property and I'm going to kind of have blackout dates that I'm not using it right I'm going to say I'm not going to use that property during that time it's okay if you do it's also your asset you can choose to do so just

know what that does to cut into your profitability and your cash flow for the year right and then that flip side of the coin of the investor that's saying I don't care about using it I'm not going to use it and I think that this this buyer is actually harder sometimes for them to choose the area they go into because there's so many different options right and a lot of times they sit and spin their wheels a lifestyle buyer knows where they want to go and

now it's a matter of learning how to underwrite find the properties that have the potential to do and meet their property goals all those different things a lot of investor buyers are I I find that they spin their wheels over and over and over because they're like I just want the best investment so they everything look you know there's all these different options there's never a perfect Market there's never a perfect property and so they don't choose one of them and I still think I'm a

big believer that even for the strict investment buyers you should look for areas that you would enjoy using not that you're going to use them it's because you know as well as I do that and the back end of this after we buy that asset for the long-term profitability we've got to figure out our guest Avatar we've got to set up that unique experience and we've got to be able to deliver that and if you're not part of that it makes it much more difficult and

so I I still think that those the tips for those investor buyers like I don't care I'm not going to use my property is I always say still pick areas that you would enjoy using and that you're attracted to because you're going to speak to an audience a lot better when you set it up yeah great great points there uh and and and good on you good discipline for not uh staying in your property on those really high-end nights you know that's one thing I found

with my portfolio sometimes when I'm traveling and I want to I want to stay in one of the properties it's like gosh I'm technically paying you know x amount of dollars per night I could pretty much go anywhere and stay anywhere so that's the great part of it too right that's how we look at it like I I have a story of because we usually try to push prices right we we feel like that the money's made at the top of the market but in this

market any any market and short-term rentals are mainstream at this stage so you always have those people that are just just competing on price it's a race to the bottom right we don't want to be that we want to do things that can stand out better than that I've got a property that's in a purpose-built resort community and there's there's 300 homes they're all one of two floor plans so they're all very similar same Resort amenities all built about the same time frame they're brand new

and when we go down there I look at it and we charge about double what our neighbors are charging and so we've got a really good customer base down there we've got a lot of repeat guests we're able to push our prices and so we actually the last three times we've gone down there we actually stay in our next door neighbor's property because there charging half of what we charge and so so we stay there we check on our property somebody else is paying us double

and it's and so you're exactly right you look at what it's going to cost you to stay in your property and sometimes you have your there's better options somewhere else yeah yeah it's funny isn't it yeah we get it we get into it but then we we're exploring options but yeah um yeah that's that's great so let's see where where should we go with this um can you tell us a little bit about about your book yeah yeah so well back in 2015-17 through that time

it took me about two years to write the book you know it's kind of a I'm a slow I'm a slow writer I guess but um what we did is we decided to take our process and I I'm a big believer in the ownership model there's really three major phases that you have to dial in and that is the acquisition phase and that's all about really underwriting the right markets underwriting the right properties being able to make sure that they'll fit your property goals and and

there is an aspect to understanding the numbers and the marketability or the investability of the market you're going into and then so that's phase number one and phase number two is being able to I don't manage any of my own properties and so we have a lot of people we know how to manage properties but my properties are all spread out I don't I don't get into the management I know you guys do and you do an amazing job of it I've never really gotten into

the management side of it so I let I hire great management partners and so the phase two is being able to take that property that you just have be able to identify a target audience set up a unique experience and then have the management in place to deliver that right and so so it takes that phase and then that third phase is being able to take that all now and be able to articulate and Market this property to the masses in these crowded markets how do

you stand out what are we doing to be able to get somebody to raise their hand to book our property above and beyond everybody else is because unfortunately just if you build it they will come that used to work from 2021 to about 2022 ish and then you know from Cova to about the you know 2022-ish and then but because the inventory Gap was so wide there the supply and demand was so wide supplying the man have caught up to each other so you really have

to dial in marketing and I wrote this step back in 2017 because you had to still Market back then right short-term rentals were it was a different game there wasn't the popularity that there was now it was growing but it wasn't to what it is today so what what when I wrote what the hell is a lifestyle asset my my goal was to take somebody through that entire process and we we have a nine-step process that we follow and that's all we were trying to do

is help people walk into the game with their eyes wide open understand in those three major phases those nine steps that it takes to dial that in so that they you know they didn't just buy a property and then they're sitting there wondering okay what did I just do because we've seen that happen right and and especially as this has grown I can't tell you how many people think that the short-term rental game is over right there's articles all the time that you know the golden

age is gone the Airbnb bust and all those different things that are that are out there I mean we know bad news sales and so that's uh it's always you know it's fun to sell um articles and and be able to get readers on articles and clicks but there's a lot of people who feel like that because they just bought something and now they're like okay I didn't realize there's all these other aspects to succeeding in this game and so that's what the goal of that

book was when we wrote it and released it and finally I wrote it in 15 and 17 didn't release it until 2021 and uh it's been really you know we've had really good feedback on it and so and the goal is just to take people through that entire process that's great that's great and congrats for finishing it you know because two years is is much faster than a lifetime which a lot of us uh you know a lot of us have books inside of us but

they never actually make it out so congrats for finishing it Sean and um another another piece that you brought up there about the management I want to dive into just a little bit because when we think of um a short-term rental investment as a lifestyle asset as an investment we also aren't usually thinking about you know unclogging toilets and answering calls at two in the morning and things like that and so management becomes a really important piece of that well Management's always an important piece just

like you said but there's a lot of different ways to do that um and for you having properties in multiple areas what are some of the things that you look for with your property managers before you decide to work with one yeah a couple things and the biggest one is like we love working with the boutique management on companies because their business model is not typically you know okay I'm just I'm just trying to get as many doors as possible and get my fair share of

business and that's how we pay the bills right they're looking to Max I'm looking for a management partner that's interested in helping me maximize my asset right and we the smaller their portfolio is the more they they you know they're going to make more money by being able to maximize these assets and so the the biggest key that we want to do is really be able to figure out how we can have a true partnership because management is the Achilles heel of this business there's a

lot of really great managers out there and we work with a ton of good ones you guys have an amazing platform and program that you guys have put together to help owners like myself manage properties right but it's there's also a lot of people who got into the game that really they're they they grab the they grab the the asset they throw it on Airbnb and then it just is what it is you get your fair share of business and so what we're looking for in

management Partners somebody that's it's willing to I don't expect them to curate my experience I don't expect them to do any of that I expect them to take the the property we have the target audience that we've identified the experience that we've put together and be able to do an amazing job delivering it right with communication and and those types of things and so it's really important what their communication platform is with our guests we know that that's one of the number one comments we get

and like a lot of times with management Partners we'll look at their reviews on other properties and my best properties that performed really well they talk more about my management Partners than they do about the property sometimes right that you know like like I read the reviews and they're like man Jess was so amazing Melissa was just out of this world and communicating with us it was she made the stay so nice and so really being able to have that communication partner to help you deliver

that great experience that you've curated is the number one thing that we're looking for right we just don't want to be you know a cog in a in a big machine that is built to just get a whole bunch of volume and a lot of your big National Brands that's what they do and it's nothing wrong with that business model they make a lot of money doing it but it's just not the model that we want to fit into as an owner right as an owner

that's what I'm looking for from a management partner somebody that's can always tell our management Partners I want to be your best client like tell me what I can do to be your best client and usually that's having to being able to invest in the property to curate this great experience and then let them take it and deliver it right yeah great great points there and it all comes down to hospitality doesn't it that that's the name of the game uh excellent tip there too by

the way Sean you mentioned uh you know looking at reviews from other properties you know where they're mentioning the property management company I think that's an excellent way for anyone out there looking for a property manager is is check some of the reviews from the properties that they're already managing yeah and if they're specifically mentioning the management company then that's just an extra uh you know extra insight there so it's huge good points good points well back in the day when when you started uh with

your short-term rental Journey things were a little different weren't they Yeah you mentioned uh renting on Craigslist and stuff like that and so a lot has changed and it's just changing so quickly still so I was wondering if you might just uh give us your take on maybe what have been um what's maybe like the most positive thing that you that you've seen happening in the short-term rental industry since when you started and maybe also the most concerning thing yeah so you know one of the

obvious positives is anything that becomes mainstream the tools available the resources available for this specific asset class I mean that's just grown exponentially when I started it wasn't I mean you were taking long-term rental programs and things that you were using for different long-term rentals and trying to trying to make it into usable for a short-term rental and they're different right because the check-ins and checkouts and you like the hospitality industry has been around forever but it's always there were all these big Enterprise level solutions

that a regular property owner couldn't tap into and so what's been really exciting is now as short promos have become so you know mainstream is now all of a sudden you have all these Enterprise level tools and software and all these systems that are accessible for individual property owners and and so the just the resources the sheer availability of resources the people in the game even like cleaners your boots on the ground maintenance cleaners that are willing to do it in some of these smaller destination

markets it's not that difficult to find anymore and back in the day it was it was almost impossible like you it was like like that little mountain cabin we had in Utah I mean I can't tell you how hard it was just to find somebody that could do the turnovers in the cleanings because it was just nobody was doing it right and so you were kind of you're kind of having to make it you know make it as you were going and now the resources available

and just I mean all the different tools are just amazing right and so that's been really really exciting to be able to become you know raise the bar because that all of that does is allows us to be more professional hosts run these like a business and create that amazing Hospitality experience that has been you know before it was Grandma's cabin that you were renting out with with cell phone pictures now the guests they not only expect but we can actually deliver world-class Hospitality right you

can you know you can we can deliver the same type of hospitality the Four Seasons can deliver in in many cases and so that's really really exciting to see in in this game because that's what it's all about right and then you know one of the one of the more concerning things there's two things that I would say that as things grow right as as anything gets really really popular you have to now you have to kind of navigate a pretty wide range of Supply um

out there there's a lot of hosts that operate at amazing levels there's a lot of hosts that just are you know not operating where they should and so anytime that happens sometimes the industry gets a Bad Name a little bit right there's you know now as it's growing more more and more popular you're starting to see two years ago everybody was all about traveling and staying in airbnbs and short-term rentals across the world now you're seeing you know celebrities and everybody else coming out and saying

and and trickles of conversation say I'll never do this again because I was you know I looked online what I what I saw wasn't even close to what I was delivered in so those are some things that are concerning and that's never going to go away as things as things really kind of grow up right we just have to we have to so I I want to see hosts out there just raise the bar continue to raise the bar let's keep the you know the the

and it's not always going to happen but keep the good name of short-term rentals for the guests because I think it's a great way for guests to travel and you know regulations are something that people are really concerned about I don't know that that's I'm not as concerned about regulations as much as I am kind of it seems like the pendulum them swung really far one way right we just have these sweeping regulations in a lot of different markets I do think the pendulum is going

to settle somewhere back in the middle um where they're you know in a lot of these markets especially and and that's just growing pains right that's just being able to grow up as an asset class it's recognizes its own asset class at this stage and so a lot of municipalities as they should they should decide where they want them how they want them to operate what they're looking for and I felt like the last couple years it it went a little far in in certain areas

and I do but I think it's going to settle back down um and so that's something we're watching close as well yeah yeah some great points there the the regulations one you know one thing that always keeps me positive about regulations is that Airbnb has generated billions of dollars in taxes for cities and municipalities that didn't have it before Airbnb and that's kind of hard that's hard money for them to turn down you know so um that always in fact I think they're poised to be

like the biggest hotel taxpayer in the world now globally I I don't know if they are already but that they're they're they're getting there uh if they're not already um the other the other thing you mentioned there was just kind of raising the bar and becoming more professional and so we have all these tools now which is fantastic we didn't have those before and I think that that's a good thing for the industry too um you know people that have never experienced a short-term rental before

if they have a bad experience the very first time that that's unfortunate yeah um so we want to raise the bar so that that doesn't happen and people continue to continue to travel and stay in short-term rentals yeah keep growing that that Supply do you have any any other ideas anything you want to throw out there just in regards to the lifestyle asset of it for maybe someone that hasn't quite pulled the trigger on a property yet yeah you know really dive in and look at

if this is the asset class you want to dive into right first I always say that like don't just assume because everybody's doing it or because you heard that it was a great asset to invest in or you can make a lot of money it's always really good I always tell people everything you do is going to have pros and cons and investing in short-term rentals getting into the short-term rental game it has pros and cons you and I we love it we we've changed our

lives because of it right we know a lot of people who have and and so but always the advice I would say is do your due diligence on the front end make sure it's the right asset class for you nothing's going to be perfect but make sure it's what you're really looking for it can it can serve and your property goals your investment goals your lifestyle goals and um if it is then the advice is then speed up now it's not time to sit and wonder

about it forever right once you once you make the decision that this is the right vehicle for you to dive into then dive all in decide who you know there's so many resources out there you know Tim you and I both have podcasts for free trainings lots of different resources there's so many other people that we both know that have amazing stuff that people can tap into as well and so after you decide it's the right vehicle then decide that you're gonna run down the road

and start taking steps every single day you don't have to do everything at once but commit to taking steps every single day to start making the dream a reality because a lot of people overestimate what they can do in 30 days 90 days but they underestimate what can happen in a year or three right and so and you look back you're either going to look back in a year and say I'm still thinking about it man I wish I would have done that because somebody blew

by me or you're gonna look back and say holy crap I can't believe what I accomplished be the latter and that would be the advice I would give if you're going to dive into this game because it is really really fun it's a it's uh but everything has pros and cons identify if it's the right vehicle if it is start running down the road yeah excellent advice and I and I love that that quote or that saying about you know um underestimating what we can accomplish

in in three years and overestimating what we can do in one year it's so so true yeah and I think yep you have an excellent podcast Sean and uh one of the other ways for people to actually get in the game right and to pull the trigger is to get educated uh and education helps eliminate our fears our uncertainties and also helps us make better investment decisions that's when we want to get right and so can you tell us um or tell audience where they can

find you I know you've been educating lots and lots of people for a real long time what's the best way for them to to find you yeah best place go check out vodacy.com that's going to have links to our podcast is going to have a place where you can get a grab a free copy of my book you can buy it on Amazon too if you like give us a review but you can get a PDF download for free on our website and learn more about

us and if it's something you want to learn a little bit um more help with we obviously run a coaching program and you can dive in and set up a time to chat for that but vodacy.com is a great place to start because it has access to all those free resources as well awesome awesome well thanks so much for coming on Sean everyone out there make sure to check out Sean's podcast check out his resources and we hope to have you back on someday in the

future awesome thanks Tim I've dedicated years figuring out how to manage my personal portfolio remotely and it wasn't always easy and it took a long time but now my amazing team can professionally manage my properties without me and good news our team can also manage yours let us save you the stress and headaches and some money by offering you an industry low fee to find out more about partnering with us head to str-riches.com hit the property management button answer a couple quick questions and meet with

me personally that's striches.com rest easy knowing that with my team your properties will be in excellent hands