Hostaway's CEO Explains $924 Million Valuation & STR Industry Future

first of all it's one thing to go out and say Here's a company that's worth a billion dollars but a completely different thing to put money behind that state it's whenever you have a business idea and you ask your friends hey would you buy this thing everyone says yes but then when you ask them for the money suddenly there's an excuse and they won't give it now anyone can say this company is worth a billion dollar and then they put 10 million to prove it but

to put down 365 million that's a massive amount of of money that's Testament to the fact that there were so many interested investors that is the only thing that really matters in the end welcome back everyone to the short-term rental riches podcast I'm really happy you're here again and I'm really happy to be seated virtually with our guest today Marcus Raider he is a CEO and co-founder of hostaway a program I'm sure you've heard us mention on the channel before if you've been tuning in over

the years because we do use it ourselves and we've been very happy with it and they're doing some really big things host way is a all-in-one vacation rental management software I often refer to those types of programs as a PMS software preferred relationships with Airbnb VRBO and booking.com which I know is not easy to do they have an integrated Market Place of over 200 different applications that integrate with hostway and they just raised $365 million if I got it right so really excited to have you

on the show today welcome Marcus yes well thank you very much for having me a great sales pitch there I don't need to do any introductions to see yeah for anyone in our audience as St in for a while they know that I love software I I used to work for a software company and it's something that we use we take advantage of and we always want to be using the leading software so we've been using hostway for several years now and the growth has been

awesome the changes have been awesome why don't we start off with how do you define a PMS software or how do you define hostway really good question so I Mentor a lot of startups and software as well but it's the same in pretty much every business I do you do something that hundreds or or thousands have done before you like if you open up a bakery or a nail salon you don't need to reinvent the wheel you can just look at what others have done but

if you want to start software copying what others are doing means you're going to be behind so it's going to be really hard to get ahead you need to do something differently and often there's problem and solution of it and I spent six years of my life trying to beine for myself for our staff for our customers and for potential investors what is the real problem that we're solving what is the real problem that people are having that they need to pay money to solve and

it was a tricky question because our solution or any software indication Ral space actually solves a ton of different problems whether it's synchronizing calendars or automating tasks messages connecting to iot or or doing your accounting or managing your staff or providing a better guest experience driving direct bookings there's a ton of problems and there's all of these solutions that it was after six years I finally figured out what the real problem of a lot of people is they just want a really good vacation rental software

they want a software to run their business on and when I figured that out that the problem is that simple that they're actually looking for a software our solution became a a lot simpler because we didn't have to say we're the best task automizer and channel synchronizer and time saer and money increaser instead we just said well we're the best vcation rental software and suddenly we started growing like crazy so that that's what we are we're vation rental software and uh if you're running a vation

rental business you're going to need a software for a lot of different things and that's what a good vacation rental software can uh can yeah that's exactly right there's all of these challenges running a a short-term rental or vacation rental literally dozens and dozens of them and so you guys have done an excellent job and what would you say to someone out there today I started personally a little over a decade ago with short from rentals and the technology we have today was not available back

then automated locks were just becoming more common what would you say today to someone that is starting a short-term rental or maybe they have a few but hasn't adopted technology or a PMS system a vacation rental Software System like host away I would say that it's very important I just checked with a friend I I got 176 reviews now as a guest on Airbnb and most of those have come in the last couple of years it's very important to stay up to date with the consumer

Trends because when Tech changes happen quite often they're in the back round it's something that big businesses do because they they are the first ones who can afford it and then later smaller businesses can afford it and only at the last stage does it actually reach the consumer a good uh good example here is supermarkets that have been using computers to manage their inventory and decide which products good on shelves for decades but it's only now that we're starting to see the actual price tag becoming

a computer that can change depending on supply and demand and the same thing goes for vacation rentals so even though technology has been around for a while the actual guests or visitors haven't seen that much technology yet but now it's starting to come out now there are Expectations by the guest that things work a certain way that you know where to find the wifi that you know how to open the door using a Smart Lock the last for digit your phone number in case you need

to put down a security deposit or in case case you're in a location that requires that you gather the ID of the guest you need to make sure that process is as smooth as the as it is with your competitors and I would say that the technology doesn't even matter to the guest what matters is that first impression someone who is used to doing things in a certain way let's compare this to or hotels where if you go on 10 plane trips and you check into

10 hotels pretty quickly learn that although they have their small differences it's pretty much the same routine but when you go check into a vacation rental you'll find out that at least three out of those 10 Suddenly It's all different like you need to go for one of them you need to go somewhere else to pick up the key and then for one of them when you enter the air conditioning is turned off and all the lights are off and you need to struggle to find

the light switches and and the air conditioning and wait five hours for it to to work that's not a uniform experience and this is where technology comes in into play and you didn't see it before if you didn't use technology because it was all in the back end it was the fact that they could answer messages faster than you could maybe because you were asleep and now ai can answer messages for you but you didn't notice that but now your guests are going to have a

bad first impression when they enter the property which means that any issues that you have in your property and let's face it all properties have issues at least for some guests they're going to tell you about that they're going to be more vocals because if you give someone a good first first impression they're going to be very forgiving about any issues but a bad first impression then you're going to have problems and this is where you need to make sure that the consumer facing side of

te technology is there otherwise you will quite frankly get worse reviews it's that's yeah excellent points and that first impression it is so important often what we find in our own business is that if some step gets missed in that first impression then that guest is often more likely to find the other faults with the property they it's almost like they're looking for it if you missed a step there I'm a super simple trick is just leave a bottle of champagne even someone who doesn't care

for that when something unexpected happen let's say the washer breaks down that's not supposed to happen you had a thousand guests the washer work just fine now there's this one guest who has just been on a long road trip and all their clothes are dirty at least they can enjoy that bottle and that will make sure that they still have a good experience and you still get that good review well awesome yeah there's so much to jump into why don't we start with your recent fundraising

and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you guys just raised $175 million not too long ago and so now with what you've just raised you've raised over half a billion do have I gotten that right yeah that's correct half a billion is a lot of money and also the the valuation we got here is 925 million which is not quite unicorn over we're 92 and a half% unicorn now just will be a unicorn and one of the questions that I often get from pretty

much everyone is what does it mean for a customers and I just wanted to share that these numbers don't really mean anything they don't mean much to me and they don't mean much to an individual customer they don't mean much to an individual employee but it does mean a couple of things that is good news for every property manager out there whether they are hostway customer or not first of all it's one thing to go out and say Here's a company that's worth a billion dollars

but a completely different thing to put money behind that state it's whenever you have a business idea and you ask your friends hey would you buy this thing everyone says yes but then when you ask them for the money suddenly there's an excuse and they won't give it now anyone can say this company is worth a billion dollar and then they put 10 million to prove it but to put down 365 million that's a massive amount of of money and that's uh that's test the fact

that there were so many interested investors and as we know in the stock market and on the real estate market opinions don't matter someone likes a house or they don't like a house that doesn't matter the only thing that matters is what is the price of the house and not the asking price the actual selling price or when you rent out a house how much do people actually pay to stay here per night that is the only thing that really matters in the end same thing

here now in order for us to have that kind of valuation it essentially say tells the entire business world and the entire world that this is a legitimate industry this is an industry that's not a niche not something new or potentially up and coming no this is an established industry with a strong forward-looking growth trajectory what that means in other words is that if you are working in this industry it is the right place at the right time now is not the time to start thinking

about about whether we should replace horses with cars that was 100 years ago but if you are working in anything related short-term rentals now is the right time and this is not the opinion of someone no this is $365 million that prove that this is the right time so it's really good news for the entire industry I agree and it's really exciting and I agree it's a really good timing to be in the industry just had a ton of opportunities still well maybe let's dig in

into this a little bit further we know there's a lot of money coming into the industry we know people are becoming more professional we know we have lots of great tools on the horizon like AI which I want to come back to AI but before we do like where do you see us maybe not in three or five years but where do you see the industry in like 10 years from now this industry is just getting started there's two sides of vacation rentals one of them

is old and the other one is well also old but I have two different angles that I'm looking at it one of them is tourism and travel and as we saw during covid suddenly that can change overnight and that can be very quick or as you see I think at easy metric is plain ticket prices sometimes they're super cheap sometimes they're ridiculously expensive and that's something that comes in Trends but overall there is there are no clouds on the horizon there's no reason why to believe

that in the future people will travel less so travel restrictions maybe World War I those would be legitimate reasons why people would choose to travel less another reason could be consumer Behavior there's two things we know for sure in the world one is that old people are going to die and the children of today are going to grow up and become adults but for both of those things there's nothing implying that people would travel less in the future now the outer aspect of it is the

assets that most of our customers are managing or even owning the real estate we are in a world where the real estate globally has increased in value faster than the income has gone up in the same amount of time as a result of that there's more people who or there's fewer people who have more properties so to speak and that's simply not effective use of these assets and capitalism has a way of finding the most effective itive use for any asset I'll give you a very

real example I run a workshop with all of our new employees and we have quite a few so they're some of the new employees have been with us even a year before they get on a workshop and I asked does anyone know anyone who has an an Airbnb or avocation and one of the the new employees we have is in Rome and she said actually my uncle rents out a place for students but we were thinking about turning it into an Airbnb and the main reason

for that is that in the summer which is the top tourist season in Rome it's empty because the students they come in fall and then they leave in Spring and then it's empty for three months of the year and that's a very good example of where these assets are not well allocated to to be fully utilized and this is why the other side of thing the supply I believe that there will be a lot more Supply in the future of short-term rentals and vacation rentals but

also a lot more demand at the same time and by the way my statements now are backed up by $365 million that's how much other people believe in the same thing and they don't believe it because I said it they did research before they even got to talk to me so yeah that's just how I see it that there's really strong Trends both on the supply and the demand side and if you're anywhere in the middle let's say you're property manager you're essentially getting a piece

of that action and that's really good news for you over the next 10 years yeah yeah great points people always be traveling and the way so society's living now has changed right people are more mobile than ever and I don't see that slowing down easier either like the ease of with which we could work remotely or travel yeah that's actually your you mentioned here earlier that you're commuting between Brazil and Colombia but you're from the US I'm spend this winter in Miami but I actually I

changed my home base from Toronto in Canada to war show in Poland just last year but I'm still going to be here three months of the year and I'll terally be in France a couple of months of the year and that's not because I'm a digital Nomad I I have a daughter and she goes to school but we can arrange schools in different locations and there's a growing number of people who are exactly like that we just hired we have our chief operating officer he's an

American who lives in Portugal we just hired a sales director he's a British guy who works who has lived over 10 years in Barcelona and that's just new Norm we're fully remote so we meet a certain type of people but yeah I agree that the way people see life has absolutely changed in the last 10 years totally yeah we just brought someone on yesterday from Calgary originally and now she's living in Montenegro and it's yeah it's just it's like every day it just becomes more and

more the norm and it's exciting I don't want to go off on a tangent too far I'm guilty of doing that quite often but part of this living remotely and being able to travel easier than ever and staying in short-term rentals has created this little bit of a gap between what traditionally was a long-term rental and what now is a short-term rental medium-term rentals or however you want to describe them I know that we use most all the same software programs to manage those types of

reservations as well it's still really important to get all those pieces in place but what's your thought or outlook on that segment of the market there's really a lot of room for growth first of all there's no successful marketplaces for midterm space so far I mean yes you can go on Airbnb but the fact is that if you go there you'll often find that people haven't enabled any monthly discounts so you have to manually ask and if you ask someone who's let's say they're asking 20,000

a month for a property if you say I want to rent it for three months they'll be more than happy to rent it for usually less than half of that because that's how much they would make it's actually you can do the math yourself take the average occupancy times the average daily rate let's say they're charging 300 a nights that would be 9,000 a month but they only rent out 50% so 4,500 that's how much you could expect if you want to rent 30 days because

that's how much they can expect making on it by charging 300 a night but there's no marketplaces and also it seems that there's only one segment of the market that truly has figured out the needs of these Travelers and those are the rbos rental by owners actually the house where I'm staying right now the owners live three houses down the street and they used to live in this house and that's why I I'll give a very practical example one of my pet peaves is the kitchen

knives I like cooking and for that you need proper knives but of course in an area me there's a lot of people who come who don't know how to use knives so they end up very dull and you can have a honing blade actually a honing blade was missing from here but that doesn't really help if the knife is damaged what you need for that is a wet stone and one day my wife said to me hey did you notice here's a wet stone so I

spent 15 minutes on a Saturday morning just sharpening every single knife to Perfection and that's what you need for a long-term stay and many shortterm places are simply not equipped for the needs of a long-term stay another example is the mattresses there are mattresses where you can sleep for three nights or a week without developing health issues or without figuratively dying but you can't spend a month in that mattress it's that simple you can't and I think the market and the industry is just just in

the early days of these midterm space of course from a property manager and owner point of view they're the dream case where you get higher Revenue than long term you don't get the obligations of the long term but you don't get the hassle of the short-term either so it's supposed to be a win-win for everyone but the fact is that it's just not common enough that there and the standards aren't there it's very much like renting on Airbnb 10 years ago or years ago when you

never knew a great way to put in yeah so and yeah if you're staying for over a month those little things that might not be a big deal for two days become a bigger deal when you're there for 30 plus for for my own ease of mind what I started doing I just put in the budget a certain amount that I need to I need to buy stuff like for example if you're near a beach it would be nice to have a beach umbrella and beach

chairs for the amount of guests that you have if you have two beach chairs but there's three of you that doesn't make sense but instead of being upset and complaining and bothering the host about it I just put aside a budget then I order that stuff and I leave it at the house and tell them this is my gift thanks for staying because it's a lot easier if you're in a location where Amazon works like Miami I was in Costa Rica two months last year and

there you couldn't order anything yeah it's a great point we get free furniture a lot of times in our medium-term rentals as well things that probably they should have been there in the first place but kind of goes back to your point that's a great way to put it it is kind of like Airbnb 10 years ago or something you know it's not really that established and a lot of improvement in that area for sure to come yeah actually the furniture is a great example where

you got to really utilize the space I I stayed a month on South Beach Miami last year we had a beautiful two-bedroom Loft in in one of the boutique condos I don't know why they call them Boutique condos they should be called mid rces but and it had these balconies one of them was right next to the bedroom and I love having my coffee outside if it's sunny day no chairs on the balconies I had to put a beach chair there and it was pretty uncomfortable

and if it was my place I would furnish every area of the space the way I would like to live there for the rest of my life but this was clearly put together as someone who did probably lived there themselves but just didn't enjoy having coffee and watching the sunrise and that's okay but if you're going to be hosting a lot of people then just imagine what do other people do and how do they do it they probably do it differently than you well we'll see

how things shape up I know you guys will be obviously this is on your drawing board as well and the OTAs and and where we rent our properties is really really important there's been a lot of push or Trends lately going direct booking and a lot of good reason for that we have Google vacation rentals now which I think is probably what should be in everyone's list of channels that they're marketing on how do you see and you guys are a premier host or or what's

it called when you guys have a an excellent relationship basically with some of the bigger OTAs like Airbnb and BRBO yeah it's called different things so verbo calls it Elite plus Airbnb calls it it's a Premiere and booking.com no bookin.com calls it Premiere and and verbo calls it something I forgot the name so these OTAs when they started out well verbo started out a bit differently they essentially bought 50 different of websites they bought arbitel in France they bought homeway in the US and then started

consolidating them into one platform and eventually that merged with Expedia which was selling hotels and uh plane tickets and car rentals but here MB and booking.com they both started with the same idea they're going to monopolize an industry and eventually because there were three big players you can monopolize an industry for two players you can just divide the market you can say hey one one takes North America the other one Europe and then we do a split somewhere in Asia and call it day that's cheaper

for both parties involved which is why maybe oligopolies aren't great when if you got three strong players suddenly nobody has the power and what it means is that you have to compete in an open market which is beneficial for us all what it means is that they can't charge extraordinarily high prices from property managers and what it also means is that they have to actually compete on the service level as well and on the inventory and as a result of that they need to make sure

that they have access to inventory we happen to be as host away in a space where we have a lot of really good inventory and that's essentially what this lotas care about that they can have a consumer go in on their site and they get to book a place that is available that has the correct price and then provides a good service because they also want that review the Airbnb wants every property on the platform to have a 5.0 review because that's they they would make

more money that way so they really want host to have these five star reviews and they measure the the connection quality availability of functionality I mentioned their discounts for monthly stage that would be one thing that they measure and then it's our job to go out and educate the property managers that's why I talk so much about what I think property managers should do there's also a real incentive behind there I want them to be successful and I also want Airbnb booking.com and Vero to be

successful because they are the ones who invest in this market in the first place if Airbnb didn't exist if booking.com didn't spend I think 15% of their marketing Budget on short-term rentals our industry may not exist as we know it today we might not have a job so it's very important to recognize that these companies should exist and yeah we're strong partners with them and we plan to keep it that way and especially the education piece is very important where in order to Pro provide a

good guest experience there's only so much they can do I mean Airbnb can go out and say hey make sure you clean the property once you say that 10,000 times people that didn't listen the first 10,000 times they're not going to listen later either and that's why it's let's say easier to work with Partners like us because we can share the message from a different point of view we can for example share data that's across all the platforms that show hey here are the amenities here

are the best practices here are the tools you need to provide a better guest experience yeah a lot of good points a lot of good points there and I agree really important to be on all the different channels for diversification the different channels also bring in different types of guests so depending on what type of property you have a lot of little intricate gosh there's so many questions I want to ask uh I could maybe one add one comment on that a common misperception of property

managers is that they tried a channel in one area and it didn't work I think they don't truly understand the business model of a two-sided Marketplace so all these OTAs are two-sided Marketplace and this is something that you than Google what you know you can read endless books and articles about two side of marketplaces but it's really simple they need to get in the supply those are The Travelers and they need to match it with the supply of the properties now the way they measure the

success there is not actually with how many guests are staying or are they having a good time because to bring in those Travelers they spend money advertising so they measure success where they get the best the highest return on investment and that's not necessarily the best location or the best rated property it might be that it's actually fully dependent on the competition because if you want to buy a Super Bowl ad the price of that ad space doesn't matter it doesn't matter what you're willing to

pay you're going to pay $1 more than what anyone else is willing to pay that's the price and it's the same thing online if you want to pay Google AdWords you're going to pay one cent more than whatever the second best was willing to pay and that's the way an auction works and what that means for a property manager is that if one OTA is great for you today they bring in all the guests and you're in a certain area could be that six months from

now yes it brought in a lot of traffic but it wasn't as profitable as another region because of competition and suddenly another OTA has swooped in and taken all the guests and that's why you need to be on all the channels because this will change exent point over a period of time it's a free market yeah excellent point we're just another drop in the giant bucket and good to be Diversified let's continue a little bit on just the property manager topic because you guys this really

well you talk with property managers all the time your software is essential or a software like yours is essential for property managers is there something maybe that you've learned that you feel really strongly about in the property management world but maybe most people haven't really discovered it yet or it's like a contrarian belief right now does anything come to mind so one thing that I that was a bit frustrating for me and that I think has really changed in the last couple of years is the

humbleness of the average property manager in order to build a good business one key aspect is to recognize that you are no different than anyone else you are following the same unless you inv invite invent a new game you're going to be following the same rules as the other players in the same game and as a result of that you can either pretend that you're in your own league and then you'll eventually lose or you accept that there's others out there who are better than you

and then you look at them and you follow their example and what I've seen I've seen a massive shift over the last let's say five years where a lot of those people who used to think that they're unique and they don't need to learn from anyone whatever other people did wrong they don't need to learn from their mistakes because they're different somehow those people are no longer in business and the people who stayed they are the people who are humble enough to admit that not only

are they not unique but there's other people that do every single thing they can do but better and the reason why they're successful is not that they're the best at everything in the world it's just a a combination that they're in the top 10% in this category and maybe the top 1% in that category maybe they're average in a third category but that's good enough to win the market because that's all it takes and that's what I'm very happy to see with property managers and I

think what's I think a lot of property managers are quite exhausted because there's been so many changes over the last decade in this space first they come in different sequences depending on the location but regulation Rising interest rates there was the the covid which was either good or bad for business but if it was really good initially for business suddenly turned against it when for example American Tourist started going to Europe again then suddenly there was a lot of empty places competition on how that that

has changed a lot of property managers who have been in this business for more than five years they really deserve a tap on their back they really need to open up a bottle of champagne and just relax a bit because they survived there's so many that didn't survive and I'm just so happy every time I talk to our customers because they are the ones who made it and it may not seem like a big victory but keep in mind for every Survivor there's hundreds that tried

and failed yeah it's not an easy business it just isn't there's a lot of moving pieces and and we got to make sure we're checking all the boxes on the hospitality front on the property front on the listing optimization front on the revenue optimization Revenue management there's a lot to learn and a lot to stay on top of and it's changing so quickly which can make it both challenging and good what would you say to to someone out there that's starting their first short-term rental like

what do you think are their chances of suc UC or comp competing or performing better than their immediate Market versus that of like a professional property manager I think right now it's actually a great time to enter this Market because we have we saw for many years we saw consolidation take place meaning that if you grow your property management business to a certain size let's say 100 units and you become profitable then you can sell your business to a bigger company that has 10,000 un units

but it turns out that business model wasn't scalable after all and just to give an example basa they had a valuation of 1.8 billion and they lost 90% of the value in a year on the stock market and then got Acquired and now are being shut down and if a business is able to scale up from one unit to 10 to 100 to 10,000 that's really bad for small businesses that's like trying to be a book shop bookstore in a small town and compete with Amazon

or trying to sell groceries in a small town and compete with Walmart it's just a it's going to be really hard but now what we're seeing is that those big consolidation plays didn't work out and the reason why they didn't work is very simple to be successful in managing all the moving Parts this property manager you need local connections you need to be able that there's one test that I always mention it's funny how sometimes it turns out true because just this Saturday our washer broke

here at the Airbnb if you can find a plumber who works Sundays and he can actually come out to your place on a Sunday yeah then you can be a property manager in that area you're a company that has 37 offices operates in several countries has 10,000 homes there is no plumber that will work for you but if you happen to call your brother-in-law and he son is available and he's a good plumber he'll come over and that's why the smaller property managers are a midsize

are currently winning the market because they have what it takes the other interesting part is what I mentioned earlier it seems the only midterm stays that are good are the ones where people actually have lived in themselves or live in themselves the the rbos people who own one or two properties not the ones who own 40 properties but the ones who own one or two maybe a maximum five and that's a substantial part of the market now it's we at least we see among our customer

base a lot of the property managers that are growing and are profitable they are exactly people who used to own one or two and they still own them but in addition to that they start managing other properties so if you're entering this space right now it's the right time and I'm not saying that just because I benefit for it this is just my observation that if you would have asked me the same question three years ago my own answer would have been that you're probably too

late because the consolidation is already in progress if you didn't start 5 years ago you're too late to the game but now the game is reset consolidation didn't work so it's an excellent future ahead for everyone here so yeah Marcus well that brings up another question could there be some ideal situation where there is a mix between traditional property managers and sort of centralized backend operations but we're going to save that for another episode I can't believe our time's up already but it's been a pleasure

having you on I got to ask you one last question we didn't even get into AI but I know that's big on hostway front and there's just a lot of really good things coming one last question actually not related to short-term reyolds and that is that the name of this podcast is short-term rental riches but we know that life is not just about financial riches and so I'm curious if there's something in your life that's enriched your life in a non-financial way that you've changed lately

or maybe some sort of new way of living yeah good question so about 18 months ago I decided I I looked back at my life I had just turned 41 and I realized that there's really a couple of defining characteristics of who I am they are inactiveness beer pizza hamburgers and hot dogs watching TV that's really what I've been doing for 41 years and I thought that's been a great life but let's try something different what if I get in shape what if I get up

at 6:00 a.m. every morning and go out for a 1 hour run before the family wakes up and I try eating some healthy foods and I try going to the gym and I'll do that for another 41 years and if I'm lucky enough to live to 82 then I have an objective way of seeing where I spent half my life and the other half and then I can choose if I want to lie on on a sofa watching movies and eating potato chips for the rest

of my life I'm going to do exactly that but at least I have visibility to do that I'm very happy I made that change it's uh it's been really great my energy levels are through the roof and it's really it's really life-changing and also the amount of sacrifice to spend 30 minutes or an hour exercising every day or eating healthy is nothing compared to what I thought it would be because people always complain but it's yeah that that's a change I I did and I'm I'm

really happy I did that I'm going to now I've been on it one year so I have only 40 years left and hopefully when I'm at 82 you'll be able to ask which one I preferred that's awesome that's awesome I'm sure you'll find at the end of this 41-year experiment that you made the right decisions here that's good Marcus hey it's been a really big pleasure having you on the show I definitely would love to have you back on in the future for anyone out there

if you want to find out more about hostaway host away.com is that the best place to find you guys Marcus absolutely and if anyone wants to reach out directly if you're a customer ours and have any feedback at all then reach out to me on LinkedIn I check my messages there and semi regular basis awesome it's been a pleasure and until next time I hope you have a fabulous day likewise thank you very much for having me see you next time take care